Background Image

【テキスト版】「Stop the TPP! HANTAI TPP!」ロリ・ワラック(パブリック・シチズン) × 山田正彦(元農林水産大臣)会談

【テキスト版】「Stop the TPP! HANTAI TPP!」ロリ・ワラック(パブリック・シチズン) × 山田正彦(元農林水産大臣)会談


【トーマス・カトー/以下:カトー】Please,10,000 people gathering on Saturday next week October 15th. And I know that she is going to just stay on asking you to send your message to the gathering, you know.


【カトー】About 5 minutes, you know.




【カトー】Then that’s part 1. I know we have only 30 minutes, again and again, OK? And remaining, you know, time he would like to report you what’s going on in Japan. That’s about all.

【ワラック】OK. Super. Ah, what would be most important for me to say? What’s the most important things to include?



【カトー】He would like you to emphasize that, you know, it looks very very difficult for US congress to ratify the agreement.


【カトー】Also, to your plan, we would like to hear that you suggest “Don’t ratify TPP in Japan” as well.



【カトー】Particularly, in order to cause us to say that, you know, they are starting to realize that TPP is bad so you might mention and we will appreciate for our three points. 今3点言いました。


Hi, I’m Lori Wallach from Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch from DC, with you in solidarity, from the other side of the glove. Congratulations on your protest. Citizens united together and all the TPP countries, we still can stop this pact. That would so empower corporations and undermine all of our futures. In Washington right now, the chances that TPP will ever be approved by the US congress are very slim. So oppositions to the TPP which you’ve probably seen this television has become a huge part of our presidential campaign. For the first time in the history of our country, both the Democratic and the Republican presidential candidates are against the trade agreement and every day they are saying “No, I oppose TPP. If I’m President, I want to implement the TPP”. That’s because that’s where the Americans public is. Because the American public has realized the TPP will expand and lock in an enormous amount of new corporate rights to flood us with unsafe food in your country and in our country, the agribusiness companies basically having control of what we eat and farmers’ seeds in basically all of the natural resources that would be exploited under the TPP. And to have extra powers of oil and gas in our future for climate and for energy. And to have new powers literally to drag our governments into corporate tribunals where three corporate attorneys could make us the consumers pay them for having to follow our laws not even in our court, in private extradition tribunals. As the American public has started to learn about this, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, they come out against. So as a result, if you want to get elected for a president here, you are against the TPP which gets to president Obama, many people admire and respect him. He did many good things. He did not get credit for saving our economy after the global financial crisis. But he is wrong in TPP. And he has gotten himself we save our country so far out in the lim that he does not realize he’s sawing close to the tree. So much of what he has accomplished would be destroyed if this agreement is implemented. But he is very keen to try and have the Congress after the election vote on it. Why? Because right now they don’t have the votes. They simply don’t have a majority in the US Congress in favor of the TPP. And the likelihood they’ll be able to have a majority after the election is very very tiny. Now if the agreement of TPP went to Congress right now, it would be sunk by a sizeable majority. Not only all of the democrats who are all against it now a lot of the Republicans are against it. So Obama’s only hope is after the election if enough of members of Congress get thrown out and not accountable anymore and they’re thinking about next corporate job in the future and not about constituencies at home, maybe by one, two votes, maybe you are squeaked through the agreement. But that’s his best case scenario which is not a good scenario for the future of the TPP. Thank God, which then begs the question: why is the Japanese Diet thinking of passing the TPP before the US Congress probably says no to it. Why would any member of the parliament in Japan want to go on the record? Giving so many people in Japan realize how bad this agreement could be for them saying “yes I’m for it”. So why the Diet would operate and decide the TPP for Japan before the US Congress decides giving almost certainly the US Congress is not going to approve. It’s something that a lot of people in Washington can’t understand. I guess it’s not my business to tell the Diet in Japan what to do but I would just to say- coming from Washington, coming from watching Congress very closely, it’s a very dangerous thing. You should simply know the fact. It’s almost impossible that our Congress is going to pass the TPP and given now how strongly Secretary Clinton, who is the likely the next president, has come out against Investor-State Dispute resolution against the patterned terms, demanding stronger rules of urgent automobiles one of the issues that was a fight between the US and Japan they almost tanked the whole agreement. A lot of issues are very contentious those are the places she is going to demand re-negotiation or she won’t bring it backup. So with us, as a background, I salute your protest I wish you the best of luck united together we can actually have a good trading between our countries and stop the TPP. HANTAI TPP.

【山田】Thank you.

【ワラック】 I think that covers it all.

【カトー】Fine, thank you. Excellent.

【ワラック】Someone has to translate this sort of things.

【カトー】 I do it.

【山田】今、日本の国会で、来週からいよいよTPP協定についての承認案と関連法案、 11法案の審議が始まります。

【カトー】start well, I mean interrupt, starting next week, diet in Japan you know.

【ワラック】It’s having a debate.

【カトー】 Having a debate of TPP.


【カトー】The prime minister Abe, he declare that he would like to ratify, you know, he has to have it ratify in Diet, you know, almost in hopefully before the day of the United States’ election in November 7th.

【ワラック】But, is it possible for rice scandal, still to do this? With the scandal on rice that happening now in Japan is possible to continue for the early vote?

【カトー】I think actually it’s going on, you know, I dare, just ratification before the United States.

【ワラック】But, do you understand my…





【カトー】In particular, issue of rice, you know, who that trigger, you know, just a debate, you know, in Japanese Diet since very recent days.


【カトー】Oh, I see. With expected the documentation by Japanese government. The session, prior session, you know, this is all they withdraw actually no language, black and white, black and white.


【カトー】And the last session, that’s why, you know, a debate of TPP suspended and, you know, and a public eye and this time, you know, they are starting but, you know, Mr.Yamada identify, please, you know, the 14 big mistakes are translation.



【カトー】Because of that opposition in parliament, just called combination of four parties, that declares that they are not ready even sit down to debate session.


【カトー】And also the term, length of this session is going to be very short.


【カトー】Therefore, you know, it will pass all.

【ワラック】Pass all?

【カトー】Possibly, postpone the, you know, all debate.

【ワラック】Hum. Where are the 14, what kind of issues is the different language in translation?

【カトー】たとえば、14のミステイクのところ、まあ、どんなところがあるか? ってところだけど、これはまたあとで細かく言うってことでいいですね?


【カトー】I would like to give you just specific in the subjects of the 14, you know, misleading area, Okey? I will give you.

【ワラック】So are they, is it agriculture or is it all through the agreement. Is that one place?

【カトー】農業に限られるか、それとも他のことも 。


【カトー】It’s no one, you know, issue than agriculture.



【カトー】Oh, I see. I see. Obviously it is important how this behavior of the opposition lawmaker. At this session, it is more important to identified, you know, just how many people outside come at Diet.



【カトー】Every Friday (Wednesdayの言い間違え), they have a session between lawmakers and public citizens. And then, after that, you know, they start the demonstration, outside the building. You know,where it is?





【カトー】October 30th. 何があるんですか?

【同行者】ジェイン・ケルシー教授が? From New Zealand.



【カトー】Oh, I see. I didn’t know that. You know the Professor Kelsey?

【ワラック】Yes. She will come? That’s good.

【カトー】She will visit to Japan on October 30th.

【ワラック】That’s great.


【カトー】Oh, I see. Now he is currently, you know, the effort, one of well-known musician, Miyake, you know, set for a gathering and he, Mr. Yamada expect or anticipate 100,000 people even double, you know, 200,000 people for the

【ワラック】Around the Diet?


【カトー】I say young guy called Mr. Okuda, I’ve never heard anyway, he is making effort, he shows you very good, just a power to bad people, you know, he particularly good job, you know…

【ワラック】He organized?

【カトー】Yes! Organized! You are really Japanese, good!


【カトー】I’ve just requested you strongly for young generations and lawmakers need to see or talk or, you know, transact with the Senator, Bernie Sanders. That is focus of the trip.


【カトー】I anticipate I’m sure that when the Senator visited Tokyo, make presentation in front of the Diet, the Diet area building at least 100,000 people are coming up.


【カトー】That is one of the essential idea to stop TPP, probable ratification in Japan.


【カトー】That’s why, you know, I visited the Senator’s office standing at the day before yesterday, yesterday and today.

【ワラック】But he is not there?


【ワラック】No. Because he is in a campaign.



【ワラック】There is very few people now in Washington


【ワラック】Most of my stuff is in Congressional districts over trying to make sure the Congressmen votes no one TPP. So only like four of my stuff are left here. All of rest of them are now in specific parts of the country, because we have almost all the no votes but we still have the handful of places when we need to work and so if you are not working on TPP vote and we can work for the election.




【ワラック】Yesterday, I was in Connecticut, in the location of one of the targets that we are working on.


【ワラック】And tomorrow I’m going to another of the targets.


【カトー】Thank you very much

【ワラック】No no no, of course of course of course. But that’s Bernie Sanders’, the problem is not, I’m sure he would love to see you. I’m just explaining that’s because it’s not he is unwilling to see you, which is he is like everyone else is not here. If he were here, I’m sure he would see you. That’s my point.




【ワラック】And I think before the election, it is very hard to get him to leave the US.



【カトー】Even after the election, you know, Mr. Yamada, he, of course, on behalf of other lawmakers would like to call him in Tokyo.


【カトー】Also I would like you to suggest Senator himself….

【ワラック】When I see him next. I will tell him.


【ワラック】I was much more in communication with him when he was running for the Senate because I was one of his trade advisers. But now that he is helping Clinton, I’m not speaking to him regularly. He has different tacts. He just, it’s not I’m not able to get directly to him. But I know when the Congress comes back after the election, he will be back, and that I can talk to him.

【カトー】昔はよくサンダースとコミュニケーションをたくさんやっておったけども、 今のところは中断しておると。これはどうしてか ? と言うと、彼はいまヒラリーを応援して遊説中という事で、だからそういったような事情であって、今のところは正直な話、要するに、全然サンダースには会っていないと。

【ワラック】Also I think that he is so focused on the US election that, and then immediately would be that fight for TPP in the US, I think I will make my best case, but I would say probably it’s not really likely, because he needs to be here for fight in Congress on TPP privy only week maybe he could be convinced would be week of Thanksgiving. Because Congress won’t be here, and election be over.



【ワラック】He is so popular in Japan? Are you think this could make difference?





【カトー】A lot of people just, you know, look forward to his effort .


【カトー】He used to be on a part of election campaign on and on also everyday.

【ワラック】That’s really interesting.


【山田】彼が本当に来てくれれば、みんながやっぱりTPPは日本国民もやっとおかしいなと、そう思って (冊子を見せる) こういう冊子を作ったんですけど。

【カトー】Like non-Japanese people are waking up, you know, they have read non of materials, amunitions, including Mr. Yamada also…
【ワラック】(冊子を見がながら) That looks great… That looks so good… There is Bernie Sanders.

If he were able to came to Japan, I think, would only be literally that week of Thanksgiving which is likely to be 23rd or 24th of November.


【ワラック】But when the Diet already have acted? But, wouldn’t the Diet already have taken by then probably. Maybe not.



【カトー】今言ったのは彼女の思い込みですよ。いいですか。11月の終わりには行けるんじゃないかと。probably、「かもしれない」ということだね。それまでに日本の国会の状況がどういうふうになってるんでしょうか? っていうことを。


【カトー】He anticipates, by the date December 10th, that is the last day of the session.


【カトー】Because that in Japan, not only the Lower House, the Lower House is more powerful in Japan. Then Upper House, they require just to approve. Even when the Lower House approved, then the bill is forwarded to the other house, and everything considered that last day is anticipated as December 10th.

【ワラック】And if the second house does not act, is the agreement adopted anyway? Or the just second? Or they have to ask?

【カトー】Oh, I see, that’s a very good question. Let me quickly answer as a lawyer. Then the Lower House approves automatically, to ratify.

【ワラック】Even without the Upper House?




【カトー】There is one possibility. That’s important I think Mr Yamada says.


【カトー】This important in Japan, there is party system sole leadership, right now secretary general of the party, Mr. Nikai, N I K A I, who is a close friend of me, says Yamada.


【カトー】He said to Mr. Yamada that for last session, it was originally was to be over by August 26, but because of his judging of the political power just actually lasted a month later, to


【カトー】Oh, I see. Until September 26th. Which means he has power. He is Nikai.


【カトー】OK. And Mister Nikai himself is very conservative, which means he is not really supportive. He not really pro-TPP.


【カトー】I see. There is apple strayer waiting upper class with the Liberal Democratic Party who are still suspicious of TPP.


【カトー】However, back to what have I said to you earlier, Mr. Abe and his cabinet member, they are just, you know, empowering and more and more effort to ratify.



【カトー】There are obviously two ways to stop, to kill the agreement. One is, of course, internal reactions wind again. The other one is just a demonstration of the number of people outside of the building. The latter can be the effort by you, and also Senator Sanders.

【ワラック】But if the vote has happened, and then the protest happens, the agreement is still in act then.

【カトー】I beg your pardon?

【ワラック】If the Diet votes and approves it, but then afterwards there’s still a big protest, but the agreement still is in force. It’s still approved.

【カトー】Once it’s approved agreed. Once it takes effect afterwards there’s no way to pertain.

【ワラック】Exactly. That’s right. So we have to watch, to see if there can be a delay. So that their vote doesn’t happen now. Before the election. In Japan. Because if the vote doesn’t happen before the election, then it makes sense for Sanders to try to come, to cause a problem. If the vote happens before the election…

【カトー】Oh, I see.

Yes, it is still very worth it. Your visit, Senator Sanders’ visit after US election.

【ワラック】I can certain…


【カトー】We know that it is practically impossible for you and Sanders to visit Tokyo. However, that’s why Prime Minister Abe is making his best effort to approve. So a lot of things are ambiguous, but at least the Prime Minister is making best effort.

【ワラック】Yeah yeah yeah, well-


That’s an important point. Well, from the standpoint of legal procedure, actually in the US, too. They have to ratify, you know, the technical ratification of the treaty. And on top of that, they have to pass this normal level of fourteen laws.

【ワラック】In Japan?

【カトー】In Japan.

【ワラック】Not here, I guess.

【カトー】Not here. No. No. And in Japan of course the area of normal law, the Upper House, they have to approve. That’s a different story.

【ワラック】A ha, so implementing is a different story than approving.




【カトー】That’s why even after the US election, please, even when we see that the ratification already took place, but in a day back to the normal life, fourteen…

【ワラック】Fourteen laws to pass. I see. I promise I will ask, I will do my best to get your request in front of him, but it’s become, I just want to be honest, it has become very difficult to get answers.


【ワラック】Because when Congress came back after the summer break in September, I had a letter. I needed him to send to other Senators, and one whole month passed and we never heard back. Normally we hear in two days. So, I’m just being honest. I will do my best effort, but I cannot promise any good result.

【カトー】Oh, sure, sure sure.
今正直な話、ちょっとまた他に話がずれるんですけれども、あることについて今Senator 含めたSenatorたちに、彼女が手紙を出したんですねいろんなことを。だけど、返事も何も来ない。今要するに選挙期間中だから。だから、そのことも正直に話します。彼女が言いたいのは、もの凄く忙しいんだから、彼女にも目を向けてくれないということやもん。


Yesterday, we got a chance to talk with Senator Sanders’ office. I am pleased to report a person who is, Alex Beacon, legislative aid, talk with him had tele-conference equipment, we talked with the other policy staff, and that he would like to tell you.

【ワラック】Great. That’s great.

【山田】で、今朝Farmers’ Union そこのジョンソンさんのところへ行って、それちょっと話して。

【カトー】This morning we got a chance to visit the Farmers’ Consumer Union, Mr. Johnson, President?

【ワラック】Yes, Roger Johnson, National Farmers’ Union. That’s great.


【カトー】And what Mr. Johnson says is, timewise, it has to be in Tokyo by the end of this month, so he’s going to make the effort.

【ワラック】So he said he would. That’s good. That’s really interesting. May I ask, what is happening with your lawsuit? The lawsuit against the TPP. What’s happening with Yamada-san’s lawsuit?

【カトー】Oh, lawsuit. I see. I got very important talk. I’m also related, you know just translation you know, ended up with 99% pages in English. You know, very very, lawsuit. Still, you know, the Tokyo district court. 今訴訟がどういう風な、今も継続していることを言ってください。


【カトー】Next session November 14th. That is number 6. It’s different from the US system but it’s a hearing debate.

【ワラック】So what happens if the agreement has been ratified and then you win the lawsuit?

【カトー】Good question. 今ちょっと話題がずれますけど、もし近々日本の国会が批准したと、そういう場合には訴訟はどういう風になるでしょうか。


【カトー】I see, that’s the point. He considers about what he is demanding. If that happens, you know, change the subject of the complaint from what it is now to that related to normal law related to agreement.

【ワラック】I see.

【カトー】That is the laws as unconstitutional. So that is the way he’ll keep the litigation.

【ワラック】I understand. That’s very helpful. Is there any other question you have for me? I’m supposed to be-I’m afraid to look…aah!- I have to do a TV show at 5 o’clock.

【カトー】Yes, I know. I’m sorry.

【ワラック】No, no. I would rather stay with you.


【ワラック】But I have to go and say bad things about the TPP. Thank you, thank you very much for visiting our office.


米国NGOパブリック・シチズンのロリ・ワラック氏と元農水相でTPP(環太平洋経済連携協定)反対の論陣を張る山田正彦氏によるワシントン発・緊急会談! 2016.10.7